lowest corporate taxes or among the highest corporate taxes in america? >> i'm -- >> highest corporate taxes in america right now, right? >> highest corporate tax rate in the world right now. >> it's not that much higher than our competitors. in fact, it's lower than many competitors. stop talking about the rates. >> that's not true. >> we know it's mislead. it's effective tax burden on corporations, which is well in line with our european and asian competitors. >> isn't it true that small businesses, which of course as we all know are the real creators of jobs, will pay the ordinary income tax? if you're going to raise ordinary income tax on people making more than $200,000, that's going to hit small businesses and choke off that part of the job creation. >> that's right, maria. the top individual tax rate have a huge amount of small business income. if romney would cut the top individual rate from 35 to 25%, for example -- >> which would help small business. >> small businesses would be benefitted by that. >> bill, that's something john thain said, the